Western Culinary Institute Class-Action Lawsuit Approved
We’ve discussed it many times over the year: Most culinary schools wildly overstate the benefits of their degree programs on graduates employment.
From the Oregonian business section:
The lawsuit, filed in 2008, alleges the Career Education Corp.-owned school engaged in fraud and unfair business practices by overstating the value of its culinary education and providing misleading job-placement rates.
and:
Jennifer Adams, the named plaintiff, alleges in the suit that 70 percent of Western’s 2007-08 graduates earn less than $22,500 a year. Her suit maintains that prospective students aren’t told before enrollment that their diploma would mostly get them low-wage, prep and line-cook jobs. She contends they could get such jobs without WCI’s training.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. If you want a job in a restaurant, you don’t need a fancy degree from a culinary college. Practice your knife skills until you are competent, then go to a restaurant and offer to work for free as an intern. Expect to work like a dog, doing the most menial jobs. Stay there for at least six months. At the end of that time, and if you are really good, maybe they will give you a job, or at least you will have made lots of contacts. If not, consider the six months without income (or less if you are smart), a good learning lesson and move to another profession. You will safe yourself a lot of money.
What do you think?
Food DudeComments
50 Responses to “Western Culinary Institute Class-Action Lawsuit Approved”Leave a Reply
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I said the same thing 20 years ago when I was at CIA; everybody there expected to graduate and have a 60K a year Exec Chef job waiting for them, and the school did nothing to dissuade that notion. However, at the end of the day and with all the internet resources available, it is the STUDENT’S responsibility to research this stuff. Anyone in the business can stand on the sideline and say “well, duh” about low paying entry level positions, but if you’re thinking about this vocation, DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO WRITE THAT CHECK. As far as schools, I’m all for education (to the extent that I’m shifting my focus to teaching); knowledge is power and you will see things at school and work with equipment that you might not get to in the real world depending on your situation.
Twitter: alancordle
says:
Totally agree with Joisey. I’m a librarian and worked for two bosses who got their degrees at universities where the library Master’s was unaccredited. Then they couldn’t leave the state. No other state would even consider their applications. And that’s a profession where the point of the degree is learning how to RESEARCH. WCI sounds like another buyer beware situation.
yea i agree the only thing they want is money they don’t care about there students i think that this college was a waste of time and money ii would like to be a part of the class-action lawsuit can anyone point me in the right direction e mail me at bigtg2007@hotmail.com please thank you all for writing about this subject and voicing our word
Tyler,
I think your comments and your style of expressing yourself speak volumes. I highly encourage you to consider taking a civil service job and apply with the government.
+1 for making me lol
yeah, Food Dude, you might get a job that way, and the chefs will teach you how to produce what they want, but they don’t have the time, patience, or interest in teaching you WHY you do things a certain way or HOW COOKING WORKS. There are better options out there, if you do your research…
Being a WCI graduate I definitely thought there were some advantages to culinary schoolbut that being said it only cost $11000 when I was there. If I could do it over there are some really good options.The ACF has a pretty good apprentice program for a fraction of the cost and Penn States has an online restaurant management AOS degree program for about half the price of WCI the whole program can be done online with the advantage of a Penn State degree. WCI has been a train wreck for years.
Johnny,
I too only paid 11k back in 94-95. I personally took alot from the program and have worked my way through the ranks. I think it is a shame on both parties to assume that they would be a chef right out of school making 40k+, it takes YEARS and YEARS of hard work and dedication to the industry to become a chef. We all know what assume spells out right. I too have heard horror stories of wci, I believe most of it. Anyway, I am sure this happens with many other colleges whether it be culinary or any other profession and post graduates worldwide.
Guignol
Totally agree it takes time with any profession after school people don’t leave law school and become a F Lee Bailey no matter what the career choice it takes time. I can say now from life experience anybody thinking of a career in the kitchen do your homework like joisey says. The best advice I could give is go with a school a soild reputation even a community college over one of the bloodsucking for profit program schools. I don’t know how many times I regretted saying I went to WCI in an interview.Potential culinary students if I can say one thing SHOP! and if its a for profit school RUN¡!!!!!
LOTS of good points above. The one worth mentioning yet again is it takes time with any profession after school to excel. Simply making it through a program does not guarantee anything; doubly so in this economy.
A potential employer will pass over your “trade school certificate” for a candidate with a bachelors degree from a local community college. Just because they say they are the “bees knees” in their TV ads, doesn’t mean squadiddly about their accreditation or standing amongst the professional community in their respective trade.
I found it interesting that the plaintiff alleges that 70% of the graduates make less than 22.5k a year. Can one assume then that the other 30% are making more? Those aren’t horrible percentages. Let’s be honest here, trade schools with built-in subsidized loan programs target a demographic that is often lost in the shuffle. Cooking schools are a lifeline for the disenfranchised, much as the military has always been. Within any school or business, cream will rise to the top, and those with the drive, the passion, and a TALENT (hello?) will more than likely excel.
With the possible exception of the Ivy Leagues, when has a diploma of any kind guaranteed financial success? Can any school be blamed for suggesting what is possible? Although I feel for those burdened with a huge loan debt with nothing to show for it, I fail to see the difference between that and ponying up tons of dough for the myriad success seminars advertised at two in the morning. Speaking of which, WCI’s television spots are typically aired in the middle of the day. What does that tell you about their target audience?
What worries me isn’t that the school can’t guarantee a high-paying job on graduation. How many schools do? I’m an art school graduate. Our instructors flat out told us only about 5% of each graduating class was likely to be able to make a paying career in art. Graphic Design students had slightly better odds; 15%. I happened to be one of the 15%, but at least I had an accredited, four-year degree and a basic understanding of the skills I needed to find/keep a job.
What worries me is that WCI is engaging in fraud, intimating or outright saying that their graduates are going to find high-paying careers, and not giving them the skills they need to succeed in the industry.
What they are offering for the bucks? From what I’ve heard, WCI is a joke, and can’t even run a functional restaurant. (See Restaurant Bleu’s review just to the right.)
Yes, cream might rise to the top, but a school should at least equip students with salable skills. I don’t think WCI is meeting the criteria for a serious educational institution. Personally, I think they should be investigated, if half of what I’ve heard about them is true.
There is a lot I could say about WCI, but will limit it to this for now; I ran a Portland restaurant for many years, and I hired many WCI graduates to work in the kitchen during that time. Some were ok, but most of them didn’t last with us because they lacked even the most basic technical skills (knife skills, etc…). Proficiency in these skills should be mandatory for culinary school graduation.
Twitter: prixfixeonline
says:
Being a grad, I can say that too even pass your first class you have to pass basic knife skills, and it follows you all the way through. Period.
The real crime, what i’ve heard from some, is the interest rates they charge on the loans to go to the schools. It’s nearly impossible to pay it back once you’ve graduated AND THEN get a 22,000 a year job.
Regarding the advice of “go to a restaurant and offer to work for free as an intern,” you might refer to this article titled “Unpaid Internships – Common but Illegal”:
http://laborlaw.typepad.com/labor_and_employment_law_/2007/11/unpaid-internsh.html
It includes the USDoL test for what constitutes an acceptable internship, including:
“The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded;”
Yup. I totally agree. We definitely need to make sure every internship pays or that the business gets absolutely nothing from the free interns but that warm feeling of selfless mentoring.
We can then enjoy our warm satisfaction with our $24 glass of draft beer and our $42 hamburger.
Not all laws are enforced to the t…for a reason.
OK, smarty pants. I posted a link to some facts known as “the law”. I did not opine in any way on the application of the law or its merit. There is no harm in being informed — in fact, several of the opinions posted here place some of the blame of disgruntled students of WCI on the students themselves for failing to get themselves fully informed. Similarly, it seems reasonable that anyone following FD’s advice should be informed of the legal boundaries of the request they are making should they approach a restaurant seeking such an internship.
You on the other hand posted sarcastic snark — twice in this thread, in fact, one time attacking the verbal skills of what would appear to be a former student at WCI. So unless you can show the math to back up your ridiculous claim that if illegal interns were to be paid even minimum wage, restaurant menu prices would rise by about five hundred percent, I’d say I contributed more to this thread than you, and I continue to wonder why you, a self-proclaimed white collar worker, continue to be such an impassioned but ultimately ineffective advocate for restaurants and the people that work in them.
One man’s sarcastic snark is another man’s satire. Satire is used to observe the absurdity of a situation, and generally includes hyperbole. It is intended to be funny. You obviously did not find it so. Can’t please everybody all the time.
It is apparent that you have never employed anyone directly. For every employee that gets paid $8.40 per hour (minimum wage in OR which I’m sure will go up soon) you get to tack on Medicare (2.9%), Social Security (6.2%), worker’s compensation insurance (a few hundred per employee per year unless you have never had a claim), workers compensation benefit fund, unemployment insurance (3.1% is the standard rate in OR).
Those are the base minimums. Now lets add on staff meal, which is common in the restaurant industry (and UNPAID interns usually get it too), staff drink (which is also expected in most non-corporate places to discourage stealing), paying extra people when someone calls in sick, and….wait for it…our government has decided that companies will have the privilege of paying health insurance for employees and their families or get to pay an 8% across the board payroll tax. That’s for every business with sales over $400K, or your average 35 seat restaurant.
So…although we have not reached 500% (again, HYPERBOLE) we are talking about increase in costs by thousands of dollars per year for every paid intern. When restaurants pay that fresh young mind $8.40 per hour plus plus plus to basically be in the way most of the time, burn and hack up the meat, and destroy a huge amount of produce for the sake of learning, all of that money comes out of the pocket of the business owner. There is not an endless bucket of profit called the business owner’s income. This is trickle down economics at it’s finest: I get to keep what’s left over. And in this recession, most restaurant owners are making less than minimum wage when you figure the number of hours they put in. So get over yourself and understand some basic economic realities and why some common sense sometimes keeps “the law” out of some workplaces for necessity. When you start enforcing the law for its own sake, you, the “foodie” will be the first to suffer when all that’s left is Applebees and Ruth Chris.
p.s. I’m no advocate. I’m married to a chef. This is my life.
Well JDG as Melissa does the taxes and accounting for my establishment I can either tell you her numbers are either accurate or I am a horse.
I’d be careful challenging her on numbers if I were you.. the girl can squeeze a nickel til the Indian rides the buffalo.
um.. I actually didn’t type “I am a horse” that was obviously changed somewhere.. how about “I am screwed”?
Dead horse, meat my beater:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?src=me&ref=business
Though I definitely agree that the ads for WCI are inflated nonsense, I cannot help but chuckle at the lawsuit. This is what people get for swallowing everything they are told- hook, line, and sinker. Maybe if you want to be a chef you should start by asking a few chefs what they think would be a good training program. I am pretty sure none of them would recommend WCI. I personally have no pity for the plaintiffs whatsoever.
I attended and graduated from WCI in the mid 1990′s,it was only about 12G then and not “Cordon Bleu”. I was a good student in the “No one can pass this class” way (Everyone passed), you paid that much money in those days you passed.
After graduating I got a job as a line cook for a diner and casino in Montana without help from WCI.
That was the best job I got out of WCI.
I understand the plaintiffs views, I was promised all sorts of glory, however, I never took it to heart. A good culinary job is based on your own skills, not a crash course in plate presentation and sauces.
A Good Chef has always worked up through the ranks from prep cook or aqua chef (dishwasher) to line cook, to sous chef. Good knife skills, competence in the kitchen, and stress management must be learned in the real world. No school no matter how prestigious can compensate for real experience.
I enjoyed my time at the school, but I knew it was fluff from the begining.
I would hope that those that are really hinging all their hope on this school to make them the new “Chef’s du Jour” are wealthy enough to throw away a chunk of change for fun times and “Chicken wars” If you have attended you know what this means…
I inquired into WCI about 8 years ago. At that time, I had a civil engineering degree and a law degree. Despite my engineering degree (and ridiculous amount of prior math classes), I was told that I would still be required to take Kitchen Math, i.e. 3 t = 1 T. Despite my argument that I have forgotten more math than any WCI will ever know and that I could take other courses in place of this (useless) course, WCI was inflexible. At that point, I could tell that getting my $$$ was far more important than teaching me how to cook. Per FoodDude, I then volunteered/worked for Art of Catering, Robert Reynolds, Gabe Rucker and Caprial Pence over the next 8 years and learned a tremendous amount for free (or even making a bit of money). Low-end and mid-end culinary schools are a waste.
Regional Accreditation is KEY! It’s the highest form of accreditation a college can receive; State colleges and universities are regionally accredited. In Oregon you want the college to be accredited by the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities. National Accreditation means NOTHING!!! That’s what you’ll often find at trade schools. If you get a Bachelor’s degree from a college that is Regionally Accredited, even if you end up not pursuing your major, you still have a Bachelor’s degree to list on your resume, and even have the possibility of pursuing a Master’s. The first thing you should ever ask any college is are they regionally accredited and then double check they are telling you the truth by going to the website of the regional accrediting body and make sure that college is also listed on their website.
Agree completely about the accreditation—while all the for-profit tech schools ARE concerned about maintaining their accreditation (with the body they PAY), it’s only because it’s 1) another piece of fluff they can babble about in their sales pitch and more importantly 2) how they are able to maintain their financial aid and veteran/displaced worker approved status. THAT’S how most of their tuition is paid, with tax dollars in various forms (ironically, most of their top people are conservative, anti-tax Republicans).
Additionally, WCI’s paid for accrediting body acts largely in collusion with them (and schools like them). While the school may have to periodically jump through certain paperwork hoops or perhaps have more frequent visits (once every 3 instead of every 6 years, with plenty of advance notice) if something is presumably amiss, it’s really all for show. In reality, filing a complaint by anyone other than a former student (e.g. current or past employees, who would have far more information) is perilous and at their own risk. Why???? Because not only must the plaintiff identify themselves to the accreditor, but the accreditor clearly states they WILL disclose this information to the school.
Uh, kinda discourages it right off the bat, huh???
You know, a lot of people say that going to culinary school is a terrible thing. I went about a year ago, and got a great job at somewhere most people would dream to work. I didnt go to WCI though, I went to the other school.
My father attended WCI in ’92 and landed his internship at Citrus with Micheal Richard, and then was offered a job after the internship.
Basically all it boils down to is a willingness to work really hard, really really hard and dont let things get in the way. Most people dont know how to work as hard as you have to and so, MANY of them dont do well after school. Thats what they get for slacking off.
It’s kind of amusing to hear people say “don’t go to school, just find a good chef to mentor you”. The fact is, there is a finite number of chefs that qualify (let alone want to mentor a rookie) vs. the insane amount of people interested in going to school. In Portland you’re lucky to get the time of day at a nice place unless you have a Hebberoy trainwreck on your resume. What I’D like to see are some of these chefs taking their talent, stepping up and doing some work AT the schools rather than having students grovel for jobs at their places. If experienced professionals want to affect a change in the culture of the new generation of culinarians, they need to get their hands dirty.
Joisey — Like Josh Blythe (ex-Genoa, ex-Paley’s Place, ex-Ripe, ex-Roux, etc.) did?
EXACTLY. I’ve got a lot of respect for him doing that and I’d love to have a similar gig.
What do I think? I think that I’m glad that when I won a dinner for 4 at a culinary school from a radio contest, it was to the Oregon Culinary Institute.
Agreeing that fault is on both sides: the school lies obscenely and is absurdly over-priced—but it’s remarkable how arrogant most culinary and hospitality students are. Throughout my career, I’ve never encountered anything quite so delusional and self-entitled as a recently graduated or interning WCI student.
But perhaps that’s also the bubble the school has put them in. At one point I interviewed for an administrative position with WCI, and even THAT had lots of spin and sales in it. My interviewer’s favorite phrase was “making our students’ dreams come true”—having spent some time in the industry, I was fully aware of what their after graduation “dreams” of sweating on a line at Red Robin.
And yeah, their restaurant is a complete freak show.
Zumpie
On the other hand did you ever have to work with anybody who has the I didn’t go to culinary school inferiority complex or was a culinary school drop out ? They are equally obnoxious they go on and on how culinary school sucks unfortunately for every know it all culinary student there’s one of these
Zumpie
On the other hand did you ever have to work with anybody who has the I didn’t go to culinary school inferiority complex or was a culinary school drop out ? They are equally obnoxious they go on and on how culinary school sucks unfortunately for every know it all culinary student there’s one of these
Johnny, what I generally notice is that WCI students (right before the scales drop from their eyes) are the arrogant ones, ironically many, many graduates from far more prestigious schools (e.g. CIA) are fairly humble (at least for awhile).
This isn’t to say I haven’t met many, many very nice, unassuming WCI graduates, just they do tend towards a rather smug, pompous demeanor—until they’re bitch slapped a few times while working at Starbucks, that is.
One last comment for full disclosure. I’ve also taught at a career school: as I mentioned upthread, much of the blame does lie with the student. Because “admissions” is sales, anyone and everyone who signs on the dotted line is let in. The students were whiny, lazy and unspeakably disrespectful. Ironicially, they fully expected their instructors to offer every possible consideration to them, even as they all but spat on them. Their rationale for receiving good grades was that they had paid tuition.
Even though homework and class participation were a large component of their grade, most of my students felt this was all optional. And the only time they paid attention was during reviews for tests–otherwise sleeping in class was quite common. Yet they all fully expected to hold senior level positions within a few years, despite the fact that I would’ve only considered 5% of them remotely employable at an hourly position.
zumpie, can you shoot me an email? dickdragon21@yahoo.com Thanks!
Joisey, Im completely fine with that, but since I want to maintain my anonymity (and my email does has my name), just let me know why I’m emailing you. Thanks
You said you taught at a career school; as I want to do the same I was wondering about your experiences. Your identity is safe with me.
I attended church for 24 years and was never saved.. anyone wanna join me in a class action lawsuit against The Pope, Priests, Nuns and God?
Just as I have realized that I am just a terrible blasphemous sinful little pog of a human being and therefore will probably not be going to Heaven so must many culinary grads realize that they are either unskilled, without talent, without drive or are simply outclassed and therefore will never reach the higher echelons of the culinary world.
WAH!
Seriously, if you don’t like the pay and hours in this line of work find another.
I love you Janice.
*swoons at Janice*
I too teach at a culinary school and at one time taught at WCI…the instructors that I worked with were some of the hardest working and talented chefs I have met…I also worked with students that had no ability, no drive, no work ethics and were just plain lazy…all demanding to be the next chef of the month…sure there were some decent ones…many have kept in touch and are working successfully…but too many were just there for the ride…the ride that their mommies and daddies paid for or that they got the funds for…did the sales folk do their jobs? yes…did I ever see any of the instructors promise instant chefdom? hell no..again, they all preached hard work ….so now we have a group of them that want money for what. that they didn’t do their homework? most schools in this country whether public or private are a business…get real…buyer beware..
Twitter: lunacafe
says:
LOL! What a fun thread! I earned an English literature degree, then a fine art degree, then an apparel design degree, then finally realized I would NEVER earn a decent living with any of these.
Not directly anyway. I was invited back to the UW to speak to a graduating class of art students and I showed them how all of the skills they had gained would apply equally well to the world of business. Needless to say, that talk wasn’t well received by the professors who were pitching jobs in the arts.
Ironically, I am a self-taught cook and with no formal degree in the field earned a modest living over many years directing 3 NW cooking schools, including the Northwest Culinary Academy. (You know something is amiss at the nation’s accredited culinary schools when you can’t get a decent omelet ANYWHERE. I am tempted to jump behind the omelet bar at hotel buffets and take over the station. Or just scream, “You are ruining my eggs!”)
Here’s my point: If a high earning job is your goal, get the education needed for a high paying job in a field where there is tons of opportunity. In my case, when I FINALLY decided that money matters, I earned one last degree in technical communications. With that and the English degree, I was hired by a fortune 500 technology company and now have plenty of time left over for my art, cooking, and writing adventures. I’m even launching a cookie business this year.
My daughter is in college now, and I am divesting her of the erroneous notion that a college education (or any education for that matter) buys you anything except the increased ability to learn and grow. And then, it’s all up to you.
Agreeing with you completely—especially that the culinary academy’s food is frequently terrible! My former employer was also frequently in trouble with their accreding body, despite the fact that the accrediting body was essentially paid for. And don’t even get me started on some of the students side activities, done on company property…
What kind of “side activities”? A friend had a student intern from there who was dealing meth on the job.
Without too much detail, that and, um, selling something else that’s illegal, as well!
And completely not surprised to hear that. Truth be told, what I’m generally most astonished by is that any tech school manages to find anyone who actually still believes their empty promises.
I am currently working on my AOS “degree” at Le Cordon Blue. I already hold an advanced degree from an other state university. I did my research, interviewed students, staff, attended classes, and decided that this “Chef School” was the best of several in Oregon. Well into the program, my current impression stays the same. WCI, Le Cordon Blue employs tallented chef/instructors, involved administrators, and “always ready to help” staff. Knife skills and omlets are part and parcel. I study, work, research and attend classes without excuses. I know from my own experience that I have to do the same to get a paying internship after the coursework is finished. I also know it takes work to get work. Take a look at Oregon Non-Farm employment stats. Food service numbers are down 6% from a year ago. Are the potential Class-Action former students dreaming? I find that there are students attending school who are immature, cell phone addicted, and selfish attitudes who probably won’t make the cut on the job. Make your money from your skills, not from frivolous lawsuits, attorneys, and senile circuit court judges.
I am a WCI graduated and I must say, they did make the impression of you will make BIG after graduation. Just like all car salesmen, it is their job (admission), to gather as many students as possible since their salary depends on the financial well being of the school. That being said, HOWEVER, most of the chefs kept on reminding their students that school ONLY teach them the basic skill that they must master if they want to go far. Most of the students have the passion for P&B, some was just there for the heck of it.. and some.. simply think it is a way to jump start their life.
Despite the common believe, education or the name of Le Cordon Bleu, you WILL make min wage. Like always, restaurant business doesn’t pay. Exec chef position? That will take YEARS! Luckily, I was a computer engineer back on doing catering.